Damian Willemse
You know, how professional rugby goes, because it's up, the highs are very high, and the lows are very low. 

Kingsley Wheaton
How does that work? Who survives the high pressure moments, and who doesn't? 

Damian Willemse
I think it comes down to playing for bigger purpose. The mental side of the game is massive. It's more mental than physical nowadays, because physically every player can do it. You need to trust your instinct 

Kingsley Wheaton
keeps you on your toes, it keeps 

Damian Willemse
on your toes, that's what makes you better every day. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Welcome to the Smokeless Word. Today, I'm in Cape Town, and I'm delighted to sit down with local hero and two-time rugby World Cup winner Damien Willemssa. We talk about his journey of remarkable talent and resilience from a childhood shaped by the aftermath of apartheid to becoming a professional athlete and an inspirational international star. We explore his roots, the people, and defining moments that shaped him and what it means to wear the South African jersey in a modern South Africa, and I tried to get a glimpse of what Coach Rassi Erasmus might have up his sleeve as the box chase, a record third consecutive world title. I hope you enjoy this episode. This podcast is intended for regulators, scientists, policymakers, and investors only. The views expressed in this podcast are the personal opinions of the speaker only. Any references to products having a reduced risk or reduced harm are based on the weight of evidence and assume no continued smoking. This material is not intended for us audiences. Damien, huge welcome to the Spokeless Word studio. Do you like it? If you like it, it's wonderfully expected. Lovely, thank you so much, Kinsley. Thank you. More than welcome. Let me walk.. let me warm up a bit. We had Will Greenwood on the podcast, slightly different generation, but where do you rank the South African England rugby rivalry of all the rivalries that you, you know, have to deal with? Play with it. 

Damian Willemse
Wow, that's some questions to start with. Yeah, definitely top three. I mean, if you look at the results over the past few years, even if the recent one, or most recent one, with the rapid World Cup, and how close that was, and intense it was, it's got to be, it's got to be in the top three. I mean, obviously, New Zealand, South Africa is up there, is one of the best, and then obviously with Australia, I think it's the rugby champs, that's one of our other huge rivalries, but yeah, I think in the top three, definitely it is a massive game, especially when you play a tweaking them, when you play a trick, 

Kingsley Wheaton
exactly, isn't there, is there a rivalry tour this year, is New Zealand not coming here or something like that? Can you say a bit about that? What's what's gonna happen? Well, 

Damian Willemse
that's gonna be massive. Yeah, I think that is the.. if you look at the calendar, you, you, you head to those dates. Yeah, the greatest rivalry tour is going to be something special. Don't think any of us as the squad or players have ever been involved in a tour like this, which is going to be massive, not just in terms of the rugby that's going to be produced, but I think, yeah, what it's going to bring to South Africa, and you know, economy, like, yeah, it's just going to be, you know, just for rugby fans alone, you know, for test matches against South Africa, one 

Kingsley Wheaton
of them's offshore, isn't it? Is it in the state in Baltimore, correct? 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, and then, yeah, they're playing against our clubs as well, the Lions, Bulls, Socks, a bit more like a 

Kingsley Wheaton
Lions tour, 

Damian Willemse
you know? Yeah, I mean, we did, South Africa did, I think, many, many years, yeah, proper touring, 1937 I think I spoke to double John Dobson, our coach today about it, and he mentioned, like, this 1937 but yeah, it's going to be special. 

Kingsley Wheaton
It's going to be a car, wait for it, can't wait for it. I might, I might try and get to Baltimore, that would be a good place to watch the game. Can I take you back to your formative years and growing up? You grew up in Strand, I believe. How does it feel now? Double World Cup winner, South African International. How does it feel when you go back there? 

Damian Willemse
Very humbling. Yeah, sometimes I also try and just like humble myself, and try and sit back, and you know, just look at the opportunity. Firstly, obviously, God's blessing and ability that He gave me and blessed me with to be able to be this good at sports, and you know, at rugby specifically. Me and then, yeah, the people have supported me through this whole journey. I think that's those are the things that I always look back at, and I'm super grateful for, and they're still present in my life today. If I make one phone call, and you know, I want to go watch the sunset, or on a pop in somewhere, if they want to see me and have a coffee or come watch home games, so yeah, I mean those are the things that keeps me grounded, and as I said, I've always just tried to, you know, stay connected to with the people that's been with me on this journey, because this has not been easy, I've been granted opportunities, and I had to make sure that I take them with both my hands and with my feet, and yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, looking in at it now as a professional rugby player with Springbok, we're doing a call, I'm just really happy for how I've been able to change my family's life, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, like 

Damian Willemse
rugby and all that stuff aside, I think that is the best gift that I could give to my parents, and you know, my, my family. So, yeah, I mean, it is, it is really nice to be a spring ball player. That's what every kid dreams, of course, tremendous. Yeah, 

Kingsley Wheaton
and I think if I write, your grandmother played quite a big part in your upbringing. I get the impression she might have instilled some values in you. What were those values? What are the values that your grandmother created in you as you grew up? 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, she was very old school, I mean, you know, proper countryside for us, that is like the Karua, like it's like they probably can't decide for you in England, see some Beaufort West, and my dad's mom sees on Worcester, Worcester, and yeah, I mean they are very like said old school, so install the values of being a gentleman, working hard, making sure we fulfill our daily tasks at home, helping her, and she was obviously living off pension money, but she always provided and always led by example. We grew up in church, altered boys, Anglican boys, both my brother and I, and my mother, my mom and dad were working shifts, so yeah, morning shift. My dad would come back in the night shift, and you know, vice versa. Yeah, and my brother and I was, or we grew up with my gran, and as I said, you know, we could see, listen, a lot of people are offering themselves and giving up their time to give us a better future. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
you know, as a young man, and, and I think that's why I made that point earlier. It's like, I think, obviously, I don't want to - they never put pressure on us to become professionals or any of that. So, yeah, I think, as I said, just repaying them, and my grand still being alive, and seeing me still with you. We are winning, winning the World Cup. Wow, wow. And then the other British and Irish Lions, unfortunately, she could only watch the one game when we came to Cape Town. Yeah, she got COVID and passed away, and rest in peace to her. And yeah, but yeah, I'm sure she's in heaven smiling down, and I think she's very grateful for everything, and she's done in the lessons that she's teach. 

Kingsley Wheaton
It's amazing, amazing. I'm going to come back to that a bit, but I heard you were a pretty decent cricketer as well. Was that, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, 

Kingsley Wheaton
could you have gone professional that way, or probably, yeah, I mean, 

Damian Willemse
I think there's a big part of me that think, oh yeah, because I had to make a decision in grade 10, whether I was gonna, you know, continue playing cricket, but at the stage there was crazy cricket players, as Fern and Philando was still in his prime, yeah, they'll stay in was there, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
morning Monet Moko was still playing, and then I mean, at my age and age, age group level, there were guys like Diane Halim, who's now in the mix, and there were some proper cricketers coming through, Donovan Ferreira, he's playing for South Africa, and I think he played, he plays in the South African League as well. I'm not sure if he's in the IPL this year, but yeah, I played against him, and that was what, 2015 right? Yeah, but then I also realized, like, listen, this is going to be like a massive step up, and again it was a choice that I had to make, but I always felt like I was better off at rugby. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Okay, 

Damian Willemse
but yeah, my dream was always to go and play at Lord's, or play, wow, you know, play some county cricket in England or go to Australia. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Were you batsman, bowler, bowler, bowler? Yeah, and I 

Damian Willemse
used to just take my spikes to the game, I wouldn't. Bad, just take my spikes, and then when the guys are batting, I'll go take a nap and just sleep. So that's a, that's a point that not a lot of people know. And actually, quite frankly, one of my cricket coaches and hostile fathers, he texted me this weekend, and he was like, you want to wants to come watch the game, and I saw him for the first time in quite a while, and he was my cricket coach, great guy, Dannina Alexander, and yeah, I think, yeah, for him, even he said it was like, "Damn, be I'm so proud of you, like happy you interact with route, 

Kingsley Wheaton
amazing, amazing. Very quickly, look, I don't want to make this a massive point, but I think it was Caroline Rupert helped with a scholarship to Paul Roos Gymnasium, that must have been quite a big thing at the time for you, as you, as you, as you embarked on that pathway. 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, I mean, that is a door, and my coach, mr. Winston Barth, he calls it the fairy tale, and it is a fairy tale. I mean, so how it obviously happened, and came the whole thing happened, and came across was that we were doing arts and culture across the road at a place called Imibala, and yeah, Caroline's mom or grandma, I'm not sure too sure how that's worked out, but long story short, Caroline then got involved with with mr. mr. Bart, and they started coaching together. Yeah, my primary school doesn't have any sporting facilities, 

Kingsley Wheaton
right? Like, 

Damian Willemse
not a blade of grass, so we walk out of our gates, probably a kilometer and a half, and then we cross across the railway, the railway lines, we go over, and then we go to this high school called HH Warden Torland, and that's where we train, so we asked them if we can use their training training pitch, and she was just like, and she came to our awards, and she saw like all these teams and all these trophies, and she was like, but what are going to happen to these boys, and she gave, well, she asked mr. Rupert, you know, is it possible to get these boys into porous or into a school, and it's like, first didn't happen, it didn't work, and yeah, and then 14 of them, I think 14 or 16 of them, I've got 1717, 1717, yeah, so that was my brother, and he's, and he's, he's mates, they were, they weren't beaten for, I think, two or three years, 107 games played, 103 one, and then the rest drew, I think they lost one, actually. Okay, so yeah, they were very, very talented group of rugby players, sportsmen, and today some of them are bankers. Any other 

Kingsley Wheaton
South African Internationals with you, who came to that pathway. No, no, no. Unfortunately, I'm the only 

Damian Willemse
one, but some of the guys still play club rugby, and as I say, they're accountants, this architectural engineers. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Wonderful story. So, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, I 

Kingsley Wheaton
have a.. I have a little.. we didn't discuss this outside, but I used to live in Nigeria. 

Damian Willemse
Yep, 

Kingsley Wheaton
and I'd just been living in the Middle East, and I said to the Lagos Rugby Club, and we used to train on a pretty dodgy pitch. I said, I think I can get, I can get us into the Dubai Sevens, and they all looked at me like, imagine, in the middle of Lagos, and they were like, what? And I asked, and off we went, and we traveled that year, 2001 We took a squad of 11 of us, played our first games, and they've been going every year ever since. 

Damian Willemse
Oh, wow. 

Kingsley Wheaton
And actually, couple of years ago, they won the International Vets, which is pretty competitive over there. 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, 

Kingsley Wheaton
with quite a few, I mean, it's morphed from being a bunch of friends to actually now having some real talent, some of them are ex-South African players, ex New Zealand players. I'll share a team photo, you'll recognize a few people, please 

Damian Willemse
send it. And what's the name of what's the name? It's called 

Kingsley Wheaton
it's called Racing Racing Club, 

Damian Willemse
Racing Club, 

Kingsley Wheaton
Racing Club Lagos. We play in pink and blue after ratting in France, but I'll send you some photos, perhaps, perhaps with me on the pitch, talking about Raymond, your brother John Dobson, your coach, says that, following his injury, believes that you play on behalf of both of you. Is that, is that, is that right? 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, it is true. I mean, my brother and I, as I said, we grew up playing rugby in the backyard. Rugby is, and has always been, always will be part of us. Went to watch out that play local club rugby, so we did everything together and. Mob 

Kingsley Wheaton
session that he played, same as he played hooker, 

Damian Willemse
hooker flying different, yeah. So he's professional, his professional career had to move to hooker. He was warned about it earlier, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
because he believed that he was a back row. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Okay, yeah. 

Damian Willemse
And then, yeah, he had to transition back to hooker because he wasn't a line art option. But I mean, today the modern game has changed, but yeah, I mean, obviously, after my brother, this injury, he's, as I said, he's very dear and close to me, and yeah, I mean, I'm also living his dream, like, in a way, his dreams has become mine, that makes sense, like, I mean, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, I mean, he was there in the 23 World Cup, supporting me from the end of the round robin games to the quarterfinal, semifinal, final, and I don't know, I just felt really, really safe, because some of the guys had their wives there, and whatever, I didn't have my family there, but I swear I really felt like I wasn't, my brother was there, but he wasn't like really being a distraction. It wasn't like I had to like tell him he was just there supporting being so like a 

Kingsley Wheaton
sixth sense. Is it a bit of a brotherly sixth sense? And 

Damian Willemse
he knows exactly how to make me tick in. As I said, like, 

Kingsley Wheaton
does he wind you up? Does he annoy you? Do you ever annoy each other, or 

Damian Willemse
he knows when to, that's the 

Kingsley Wheaton
key. He knows me too well, 

Damian Willemse
but yeah, I mean, yeah, going out on the pitch, and you know, just expressing and playing for, for him is one way of, you know, giving me that motivation to go out every week and perform at a higher level, because obviously you know you know our professional rap because it's up and down and it's subtle and near, so the highs are very high and the lows are very low. I'll come 

Kingsley Wheaton
back to the lows, if I may. John Dobson also said, I'm going to quote this, Damon, if I may, I don't want to embarrass you, if there's any charitable cause, if it's any player's birthday, let alone what he puts in on the training field, he's one of the most special people I've ever had the chance to work with. What makes you special, Damien? 

Damian Willemse
What makes me special? I think I just love people, especially at my, in our, in our job, it can get quite lonely being a professional athlete. The stuff you read on social media, what people say about your teammates, about you, and I think just that connection and human connection, and almost just putting aside that we are professionals, and that is the safe space and safe environment for us as players and teammates, and I've known some of some of my teammates since school, and played junior rugby with them since school, and yeah, as I said, I really enjoy and love going the extra mile for my teammates, and you know, celebrating and buying a cake, and I don't want to be the guy to, you know, like show off and be like, okay, but Damon did that, or whatever. I don't never want to take credit for anything that I do. I just do it because I want to. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, and 

Damian Willemse
it's part of me, it's part of us, and that's the culture that we are trying to create at the Stormers. And yeah, I think the club has been doing very well, and you know, I was also fortunate to grow up in a play with with legends like Ibn Edzabeth, Jason Colby, Bongi, Benambi, some big players, so big players, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah. I mean, they've kind 

Damian Willemse
of also shown me the way, yeah. And then they like 

Kingsley Wheaton
you on that, they would you share that as a sort of, yeah, very family, yeah, very family orientated, 

Damian Willemse
and you know, getting each other and the club and team and teammates first ahead of yourself, and yeah, I think they kind of just showed me the way, and I'm trying to now do the do the same with the next generation coming up and showing how important that human connection is, and yeah, I mean, working with Dabo has been, you know, one of my favorite, you know, he's a great man, I love, I really love him. So that's a nice word, appreciate that. It's 

Kingsley Wheaton
brilliant. Can I just talk to you about wearing the jersey, the jersey? You know, I was sharing with you, I was here in 97 for the first time that Calise more recently spring, what captain, South African captain, you know, I was here in a post-apartheid early area era. Do you think that, that, you know, transformation of South Africa and South African rugby is that symbolic? Is that, has that sort of worked somehow in step together? 

Damian Willemse
100% I mean, I obviously can't speak on apartheid, because I was born post-apartheid, but again, CS appointment has changed the rugby landscape, and you know, especially when it comes to players of color, and then the way. They think, and obviously approaching the game in such a way that you know it's touching millions and millions of kids, and I wouldn't say place of color, I mean each and every race, like Sia is my hero, like 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, just as much as he is 12 year old Cyril. I really look up to him, and I try and live by, you know, some of his values, the way he leads, the way he is as a husband, again that human connection and element, and yeah, he's just, he's just a great man. He was my captain at the Stormers when I made my debut at 18 years old, fresh out of school. How was that? What did he say to you before the game? He literally told me, 'Go out and enjoy yourself, press yourself. You, you told me you are one of the best schoolboy players that I've ever seen. You've got this, my brother. I love you. And, like, he gave me this when Sia had you imagine he gives you this big hug, squeeze like this, and I was like, what? So every time when we run onto the field, you know, see, I runs on, and then he like pumps his chest, and then the first handshake and hug. I don't do it anymore. I ran away, 

Kingsley Wheaton
and I'm like, see, I just crossed my back. It's funny hearing you talk. You know that story reminded me of it. You know, maybe there's an image of rugby players being tough and hard, but there seems to be quite a lot of values, love, care, that seems to be quite a theme. I'm sure that's you, but I'm also getting that's your teammates as well, in a way that perhaps maybe not all the listeners would expect. 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, definitely. I mean, as I said, we spend six months, six, eight months plus a year together playing rugby, being an environment, you know, working together, and some guys, I said, they give up family time, months away from their family, traveling, kids, a lot of their responsibilities and priorities needs to change, and as I said, we only have each other, it's only 

Kingsley Wheaton
us, 

Damian Willemse
and for us at the Springboks and at the club, yeah, we call it part of 

Kingsley Wheaton
us, yeah, 

Damian Willemse
and is that the same 

Kingsley Wheaton
when you go overseas, when you played overseas, is it the same or is it different? 

Damian Willemse
I think it's still a big sense of like belonging and making sure just family, I mean, I had the privilege of playing at Tarzan's for three months, stint there was that 2019 2019 yeah, just before the World Cup, so I had a knee injury and our curry cup has then finished, I was on the short list, so I couldn't, I needed to play rugby, and Chris Russi put me on the short list, and then yeah, Edinburgh offered me, and Saracens offered me, and I was like, there's no way that I need this respect, respectfully, it's Edinburgh, but yeah, I've always wanted to be involved and be attached to a club like liking like Saracens, yeah, very big club, and yeah, I enjoyed my time in England getting to know London, where 

Kingsley Wheaton
was home when you were 

Damian Willemse
Son of Man's, okay? Was there everything except the, except the rain? Can I ask 

Kingsley Wheaton
you, you know, World World Cup twice, World Cup winner, Lions Series. Where does the Lions rank in your rugby experience? I know it was, you know, kind of lessened by COVID, but how is a Lions series in, in your thinking as a, you know, rugby profession? 

Damian Willemse
Absolutely massive. I mean, I still get goosebumps, like, till this day. I go and obviously watch some of the games back, 

Kingsley Wheaton
sure, 

Damian Willemse
but yeah, it is one of the greatest tours and fixtures, I think, ever. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, like, 

Damian Willemse
they're obviously playing against New Zealand, and New Zealand is big and massive, and I said this respectfully, because you know there's some other big fixtures as well, but I mean, South Africa, the British and Irish lions, I don't know, I don't know, there's not a lot of things that come close to that, and I experienced it being at six caps, six and five caps, I looked through my jerseys the other day, and I was like, yeah, Coach Rassi and Jacque and Felix and Coach sticks, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
they really believed in me, like five, and I had five caps, yeah, had to go up against Anthony Watson, yes, Stuart Hogg, yeah, and these guys are like, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
8090 cap is. For their, for their country, and they've played on three British and Iris, two British and Irish lines tours, like, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
these are proper players, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, yeah, and you won the series, and it's, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, win to what we wanted, we did, we did win it, but it was tough, I mean, it was high quality rugby, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
intense rivalry was was up there, and I think it's something that still blows my mind about how big it is, because as I said, obviously the fans, yeah, fans weren't there, yeah, yeah, but again, like we receive videos through social media, people were sending messages, like we had this big screen up at our hotel, and people, you just like come up messages, messages, and yeah, I think, 

Kingsley Wheaton
is it because it's the best of the best from the Northern Hemisphere? It is, yeah, being unfair to France, it is the 

Damian Willemse
best of the best, sort of 

Kingsley Wheaton
like that's why it's so special and so rare, one one test series every 12 years. Yep, you know it's quite a thing. Can I ask you on that subject? 49 caps, have I got that right? 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, 49 caps. Well, next 

Kingsley Wheaton
one's the 50th. That'll be a big one. 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, God willing, it'll be against England if I do. If I do make the team and I stay healthy and fit, and obviously I need to play, I need to play myself into the team and play well, so yeah, I mean 

Kingsley Wheaton
that'll be the fifth. How I want to ask you about the losses. How do the losses feel? How do they, are they terrible? They do you never forget them? Do you never get over them? Are they learnings? How, where do the losses fit in the 

Damian Willemse
loss, the losses are it's, it's a tough one, because each loss is different situational. I think if I look back at last week after the passing of our manager, Christopher Solomon's mr. Uncle Chippy, may he soul also rest in peace. And you know you look again to that game and you prepare and you lose against Connach, then you're like you think you're the worst player ever, or whatever. But then again, there's other days where you know you lose a game, but you're proud of your effort, but it's not about you as the individual. The team still lost, and then those days where you know your team and everyone gave everything, but you just fell short. And again, I think, as I've grown older, a little bit older, but you know, you learn, and you have to take a step back and realize and tell yourself that this is sport, and you are going to lose a rugby game. I mean, it's part of, part of the game, and you can just get better, and I think, yeah, as I said, as I got an older, if this really is like taking a step back, analyze it, try and understand it. If I'm feeling a certain type of a certain way, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
lonely, sad, whatever, just to experience that and go through that. Whereas in the past, like I would have Sunday morning woke up, go on the bike, go around 10 kilometers, so the harder would get, the harder I would be in myself, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, and 

Damian Willemse
that, that works for maybe two months or a month, that's that's a short term fix, but yeah, I mean, you need something about, 

Kingsley Wheaton
is this something about like understanding your emotions and wisdom, and so is that, is that part of it? 100% 

Damian Willemse
I think. Obviously, in the modern game, and you know, things, and we said we spoke about Club Rugby earlier, and how much we are playing. You need to start tapping into two different things, and as I said, the mental, the mental side of the game is massive. It's more mental than physical nowadays, because physically every player can do it. Everyone is trained to run a 40 meter at a certain time and pace, or be in this position and defensively, or kick a box kick at on the tee 20 meters with that much hang time. So the game has become, I wouldn't say robotic, but there's so many ways where you can actually, you know, like fix certain things, but again, it's up here, it's mental, it's set that mental strength, that ability to connect with your teammate, make plans throughout the week, and just make sure that you tap into various areas and things, especially 

Kingsley Wheaton
one thing that I think surprises people is the noise. Noise isn't it? The communication when you're out there, is it like.. I mean, how do you do that with the crowd and everything? Is it just like, are you just yelling at each other all the time? Is it, you know, constantly in communication? Is that how it works? Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
a lot of it is a repetition, so especially for me, it's a fullback. I love, I love pictures, and I love to analyze. Yeah, and I will sit down with my back three during the week and make sure that we do our analysis, what type of pictures I'm seeing, where I'm gonna go, yeah, and them reacting, and it's mostly because it's so loud. Sometimes you try and shout to your teammate that's 30 meters away, but in a stadium full of 50 people, 50,000 people, it's quite hard. Yeah, so a lot of it's also handshakes or hand testers, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
two, three clothes, right, or whatever. I don't want to give away too much, exactly. Don't give away the secrets. It's a lot of that goes into.. Do you 

Kingsley Wheaton
know? Do you know the players you've played the most with? Do you have a sixth sense? Do you know? You know they're there, lines of running patterns, how they think. That's all kind of up here, automatically, 

Damian Willemse
100% And, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, I mean, I was chatting to Sasha yesterday, and I was like, when I play with you, like, I know, like, when you're running that way, you need me to do this, and like, we've, we're so in sync, and I think it's also like I said, like sitting down and getting to know the person, and think, like, okay, this is actually how he is, and like he's actually a very, he's a player that loves to play on the edge. He'll take that risk, or one of my other teammates, little bit more conservative. Yeah, and you make those connections, and when you go into the field, you know that you can trust that person, we can trust you, and you kind of know what instincts they're gonna, they're gonna pull, pull out, pull out the hat, and 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, I think that's something that's people, people don't rate enough, no, 

Kingsley Wheaton
exactly, the understanding, and also I think what came across loud and clear, clear was, was the preparation, you know, that you have to work at that, the preparation, and and the planning, which, which takes me on to Rassi, can I ask you about Rassi, who I think you know for any non-South African, is just like this sort of legendary coach, who we.. I don't know if we love to hate, you know what I mean, but he's such a big character. What does he do that other coaches don't? 

Damian Willemse
I think his approach to the game, I think isn't scared to make a mistake or fail at trying something, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah. 

Damian Willemse
And, yeah, I just think he's someone who really trusts his intuition and cut, and yeah, you know, and he goes and stands and lives by it. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, he's outspoken, right? Yeah, he speaks his mind, 

Damian Willemse
and yeah, I mean, I met him, I said 2018 and he was like, 'We're gonna, you playing, you're playing this weekend, literally in the corridor. I was like, 'What? Like, the head coach just like told me, like, I'm making my debut against Argentina, the first game of the Rugby Championship, and that's the kind of guy, like, he is, like, he'll say things like in front of the team or whatever, and it's like this, there's no cray, it's 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, it's like what you see is what you get, really, yeah, we love him for that, and he's a 

Kingsley Wheaton
instinctive 

Damian Willemse
very much, 

Kingsley Wheaton
but analytical as well, 

Damian Willemse
very, and 

Kingsley Wheaton
they links those two things. Is the analytical allowance? I mean, you need to, you need 

Damian Willemse
to trust your instinct. Yeah, and then again, as I said, like for me, same as Coach Rasius, like we will, or he analyzes a lot, and I think I learned that from him and Coach Jacques, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
and it's a part of the game, Coach Felix, as well, yeah, it's a part of the game that I really enjoy, is doing analysis, looking at teams, and just watching, just watching tape, I think, yeah, yeah, being 

Kingsley Wheaton
yourself, do you watch yourself, because you have to, 

Damian Willemse
I do, learning point, learning, you enjoy 

Kingsley Wheaton
that? Or 

Damian Willemse
I love it. I mean, I love watching rugby. Yeah, every day in golf or whatever. Yes, I've started watching a lot of NFL as well. Have you? Okay, yeah. Well, you 

Kingsley Wheaton
could get a game when you're over at Baltimore 

Damian Willemse
for the New Zealand. We can get a game there. Yeah, Ravens, what's your 

Kingsley Wheaton
NFL team? Do you have an NFL? 

Damian Willemse
I don't have a team, but I support Seiko and Barclay. Okay, I was.. I was support when I started watching in NFL. It was him and Odell Beckham Jr. played at the New York Giants, and then obviously they.. he moved on to play for the Browns, and you know, he went to Baltimore, Miami, yeah, and now he's kind of out of the mix, but one is playing at the Jets, so he's not tempted, 

Kingsley Wheaton
you wouldn't give it a go. 

Damian Willemse
Some people, yeah, I would love to, but I don't think running back, 

Kingsley Wheaton
probably running back, probably running back, think so, trying to get 

Damian Willemse
a wall. It's a 

Kingsley Wheaton
bit of a jitter. 

Damian Willemse
I have to work on my speed. Those guys are lightning, 

Kingsley Wheaton
Damien. I want to take you back to the infamous or famous mark in the Scrum call. And then I read that this was all pre-planned, you know? Was that that was a rassy thing, I suppose, planning with you and the ad analysis, that's that's that's a innovative, which is interesting for me in business, but also the coolness of head. There must be so much in you, the automated part of you, that would just take the mark and take the kick, you know. How did it come about? How did that, how did that innovation develop? 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, so look, obviously, as I said, it is everything we do is strategic, but again, it comes down to instinct on the field, and for me, being at fullback, knowing the plan, going through the plan all weeks, and it could have been anyone who would have been in that position to have been able to call the mark, and I think it's just a thing of timing and trusting your, your gut and your ability and your teammates, because I've been, I've been super conscious in a way of, like, okay, what is the time, where are we in the field? Okay, how many phases have we played? Have we had any interactions, like battles with, with the opposition? So, as you're playing, you're you're assessing all of these things, and I'm, you know, so they had a scrum on the left hand side, there right in scrum passed the ball all the way to Louis Belbury, and then he just whacked the ball down into my 2020 22 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
and that was our plan. Our plan was to bring them to a contest, and after the tech looked at the clock, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
caught the ball. Oh, yeah, I looked at the clock, looked at the ball, or looking at the ball, caught the ball, put it down. I was thinking, I was thinking about it, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
was like, okay, one of this go wrong. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
and for that split second, yeah. Okay, it's time to call it. And then, yeah, I called the mark. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
just went to my position. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yep, 

Damian Willemse
and I was waiting anxiously there. 

Kingsley Wheaton
And what happened? Well, how did it play out for the listeners? What happened next? So, Scrum, Scrum call 

Damian Willemse
when we got the penalty. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, you got a penalty, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, they can, they jog basically what, 3060 yards 

Kingsley Wheaton
to have a scrub, 

Damian Willemse
to have a scrum, 

Kingsley Wheaton
to lose a penalty, 

Damian Willemse
lose a penalty, and 

Kingsley Wheaton
then you add the psychologically, yeah, and they must have messed with their heads, 

Damian Willemse
and no one saw it coming, yeah, not the ref, not the commentators, and the players, or the guys that are like the front rowers, they didn't know when I was going to call it, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, yeah, 

Damian Willemse
so again it came down to like it had to, it had to be at the right, and I'm not trying to take, you know, like the most me who made 

Kingsley Wheaton
sure like 

Damian Willemse
before is like understanding their role and doing it, giving the scrum, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
yeah, it was amazing. It's a super planning, it's the 

Kingsley Wheaton
innovation, isn't it? And again, it comes back to the analysis and the instinct and the and the innovation, and then also getting in people's heads a bit. I talking about getting in people's heads, I'd forgotten this statistic, and of course, I think, as an Englishman, I should have remembered it. You won three of your knockout games in 23 by a point. How does that work? Who survives the high pressure moments, and who doesn't? Or is that just.. is that easy to say with hindsight? Is it just a statistic? But winning on the edge, how does that. how does that happen? 

Damian Willemse
I think it's comes down to grit. I think it comes down to, as I said earlier, like playing for bigger purpose, cause doing that not only once, three times, three times in 

Kingsley Wheaton
highest pressure environment. 

Damian Willemse
Yep, yeah, I think all of those things, like unspoken things, and stuff that people don't see that goes on behind the scenes, the analysis, the training, the level of, you know, the level of work that goes into a week like that, it is like that smallest, smaller, small difference, that's that's the thing that's going to make the difference. 

Kingsley Wheaton
You believe in 

Damian Willemse
winning by one point. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, you follow the sort of marginal gains, was it Clive Woodward or was it think it was England, I think it was England cycling, wasn't it? Richly, Dave Brailsford, you know, 1% more, 1% more, you know, 100 times over, or whatever. That's that's the difference, is it? That's the margins, 

Damian Willemse
100% because 

Kingsley Wheaton
it's so presumably at the highest level of international rugby today, 15 players, 15 players on paper, they're probably. Probably almost, you could, couldn't separate them. Yeah, so then it's the marginals, and what you were saying up here, 100% mentality, 

Damian Willemse
100% that's 

Kingsley Wheaton
the difference. And is winning a habit sounds to me like it might be a habit. 

Damian Willemse
Winning is definitely a habit, I think, but again, I think you can come used to winning, but you can also become complacent, and we expect doing 

Kingsley Wheaton
what stops the South African International becoming complacent. The Jersey, 

Damian Willemse
I think, 

Kingsley Wheaton
Rassi, I 

Damian Willemse
think we are all very honest with each other, and yeah, we have a policy where you get selected on, so you need to obviously make it all, you know, like, do the, or get past the criteria of being on top of your game, everyone gets straight, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yep, 

Damian Willemse
and then again, the competition, there's a lot of competition, I mean, there's three, there's three fullbacks in South Africa that can play for South Africa, starting 

Kingsley Wheaton
your one, your jersey, 

Damian Willemse
and anyone can play there, like that's the thing, like, yeah, if you put any one of them in that jersey, they're going to do well, yeah, the wingers, there's Colby, there's Moody, there's Arenzer, yeah, there's fund the murder, so the list goes on and on, so no one's safe, and I think we've created an internal healthy competition, 

Kingsley Wheaton
keeps you on your toes, that keeps you 

Damian Willemse
on your toes, and I think in any working environment, yes, you want that, of course, that's what makes you better, yeah, every day, and yeah, you just want to challenge yourself, and 

Kingsley Wheaton
I want to ask about, I want to sort of try and link some of this to business life, and bat feedback, personal feedback, you know, someone does something that upsets you, maybe not upsets you, but you know, how is it? Is it, is it delivered? Is it quick? Is it, is it quick and over, or is it how is feedback given within the team to players, you know, particularly for, you know, perhaps not the best performance, but the less good performance. 

Damian Willemse
Well, I think again, you need to take a step back and assess and look at the situation and be realistic about it, and like, guys, this is what happened. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, this 

Damian Willemse
is the outcome, like, obviously not, not just the loss, but like, this is like the outcome that we got from doing A, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yep, 

Damian Willemse
and B, and C, and then we got this outcome, and then again we have a team review where the coaches will come and present attacking coach, defensive coach, and then the head coach, and we have all these different departments, and then obviously us as game drivers, we call them, we call us game drivers. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Okay, 

Damian Willemse
whatever. Our sasha will run the attack, the rock will run the line outs, I will run the kicking game, the kicking game, our kicking game, and they'll come to me and be like, Damon, what's happening? We didn't win the territory battle this week, yeah, or we lost this. So then I need to report on that. I need to speak to my back three and make sure boys are we aligned? Did we? Yeah, does everyone understand what it's like 

Kingsley Wheaton
in units? It's broken down into units. It 

Damian Willemse
is a unit, so and then the feedback would obviously come from the kicking coaches, or I'm just using that as an example, but yeah, and then we obviously go down into our smaller groups, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
but yeah, I mean, feedback is it's given on on the on the go while the game's playing being played half time, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yep, and then 

Damian Willemse
yeah, I mean, we, it's, we have this thing where we, we're trying to fix the boat while it's, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
you know, like still on its way, like we don't want to fix the boat while it's sinking, 

Kingsley Wheaton
no, you know what I'm saying, so stay afloat, 

Damian Willemse
you stay afloat, and yeah, 

Kingsley Wheaton
I remember, even at the level I played Damien, when I skipped the side, I had a fly half, you know, he was nervous that he would go and throw up, go throw, he just had to be left on his own, and another guy, he was like, it was my first big leadership lesson was on the sports field, and you realize you have no.. it's not like work, right? It's not like business. You have no positional power. You only have personal power. You can motivate, inspire, help people understand. I wanted to talk to you about.. you talked about purpose just now. I asked Will Greenwood when he was on, you know, that England, let's say, early 2000s the Clyde Woodward squad, what? How did they think about mission, purpose? Did they want to be well, champions? Do they want to be the best in the world, or the greatest team that ever lived? And he looked at me, went, 'No. He said, 'Just win the next game. Is that, is that similar still? Yeah, really, that's the mantra, is it? 

Damian Willemse
And I think it has to be. And, as I said, we. Talk about earlier, the modern game is so competitive, and if you put the two teams up next against each other, everyone 

Kingsley Wheaton
is as 

Damian Willemse
good as I said, the modern standards that you need to to make a team or to deliver and play. Yeah, I mean, it is really, really hard to be number one or be the world champs and put it out there. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, sure. 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, obviously everyone wants to be the best, and everyone wants to, but it's not something that you would put up there on 

Kingsley Wheaton
the flip chart. In the two, you have to, you have 

Damian Willemse
to stay present in the moment, 

Kingsley Wheaton
win the next game, win 

Damian Willemse
the next game. Make sure you are doing Monday. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
you can take Monday. Yeah, like we goal of the day ticked Tuesday, goal of the day ticked. That you have to go through that process, and I think a lot of people like, like, think it's just like we rock up on a Saturday, rugby is like, no, we put in a 

Kingsley Wheaton
lot, 

Damian Willemse
2030 hours a day, 

Kingsley Wheaton
discipline, 

Damian Willemse
discipline, recovery, next day, tomorrow morning, waking up again, preview, 

Kingsley Wheaton
lot of lessons in business, there a lot of lessons, 

Damian Willemse
I mean, it's planning, 

Kingsley Wheaton
preparation, analysis is the same, isn't it? We all want to win. Walk into the office on a Friday morning and go, "Hey, we won yet? You have to work at it, don't. Yeah, it's like, 

Damian Willemse
so.. yeah. I got asked this question the other day about why did they move me to Wing, and I said to this person, I said, "You know, we've been working on this plan for like a month and a half, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
and we finally made the call, because one of our wingers got injured, and one of our wingers just came back from injury, so he's gaining some fitness, and I told the coach to listen, I think it's time to like deploy me on to wing, and we were like, okay, cool, but then everyone in the comments, and I said social media can also, you know, be very hard and harsh, and I'm learning a new skill set. I've been learning this new skill set, and I've moved into wing now, and people just think, like, oh, like this snap decision, snap decision, but six weeks, month and a half, 

Kingsley Wheaton
planning, preparation, reps, reps, reps, every day, learning 

Damian Willemse
or looking at footage. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
so yeah, it 

Kingsley Wheaton
doesn't come easy. It requires a bit of sweat. I want to ask you one more question before I go on to the quick fire round. Quick fire rounds really unfair because I ask you, you know, this or that. Some guests dodge the questions, but we'll see how we go on celebrating success, that's what I want to talk about. Probably a different era, we used to celebrate in a certain way, probably involved quite a lot of beer or something, you know. But the celebrating success, but how important is that? And how do you know elite professional athletes at the top of the game? How do they celebrate together these days? 

Damian Willemse
It's changed a little bit, like, especially like from when I played, like, nine when I made my debut, it was very much as you said, like, the boys are gonna get all together, yeah, old school, the slugging letters across from humans, and now just get stuck into a couple of years, but I think obviously the modern game, and as a modern athlete, you kind of have to pick and choose your moments, but again, like we love to celebrate, important, it's very important. I think you need to celebrate success, and you can celebrate it in different ways. It doesn't necessarily just have to be drinking or whatever, it could be a celebration or doing something together that doesn't cry anything. You can sit in the park, sit as a team or whatever, go for a coffee and find cool alternative ways to, you know, connect and celebrate. 

Kingsley Wheaton
You think teams celebrate enough, or are they onto the Monday goal list again too quickly? 

Damian Willemse
I don't think they celebrate enough. I think we also take our game and what we have this opportunity for granted sometimes, and I'll put my hand up first, because you think you'll be there tomorrow. And, as I said, about our manager, we were in the south of France. We played Toulon, and we flew back to Tuesday. We had a week off, and I thought I was going to see him the next Monday. I was supposed to go in on the on the Thursday, took my car for service, and then Saturday morning passed away, and I've known him since I was 10 years old, but again I'm just like trying to put it into context about enjoying the moment, being there, being present, and what we're doing for a living is. Is there's people out there that's struggling, and then we do anything and everything to be in this position, and I think when we take a step back and we look at it and see, just think about how blessed you are, Mom's healthy, you can see a sunrise, you can see a sunset, you've got a colleague here next to you cares about you, you know that you can go to or lean on when you're in a tough time, tough moment. So, yeah, I think we need to celebrate more. The more we celebrate, the more we celebrate. 

Kingsley Wheaton
It's very good, very good, very touching. Quick fire round. Yeah, supposed to pick one or the other. Let's do it. We're on podcast, okay? Why not wine or beer? Beer, 

Damian Willemse
beer, 

Kingsley Wheaton
cold, Camden, 

Damian Willemse
Camden Lager, Camden Lager, 

Kingsley Wheaton
restaurant or braai. 

Damian Willemse
Definitely bright, 

Kingsley Wheaton
definitely bright. Home or holiday, 

Damian Willemse
holiday 

Kingsley Wheaton
family or work. 

Damian Willemse
Your, 

Kingsley Wheaton
you can dodge it if you want 

Damian Willemse
family 

Kingsley Wheaton
TV or a good book 

Damian Willemse
TV 

Kingsley Wheaton
time alone or time with friends. 

Damian Willemse
I love my friends, but I love time alone. I love, I love my, I love my 

Kingsley Wheaton
World Cup or Lions Tour. 

Damian Willemse
Wow. I 

Kingsley Wheaton
think so. 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, 

Kingsley Wheaton
just Winelands or Waterfront 

Damian Willemse
Winelands. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Okay, built on or borrowed, built on full back or wing. 

Damian Willemse
Five man, you want to pass on that one fullback, 

Kingsley Wheaton
fullback to lose all Edster. 

Damian Willemse
Damn, oh, for the worst in Dublin. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Here's a good one, Antoine Dupont or Fari Duprea. Duprea, 

Damian Willemse
both great players, great players are they. Yeah, generational great nights. Fred appears, he's a legend. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Yeah, 

Damian Willemse
I think he's probably arguably one of the best nines to ever play the game. 

Kingsley Wheaton
There's been a lot of good nights, yeah, a lot of John 

Damian Willemse
Justin Marshall. 

Kingsley Wheaton
I was there. I was telling you at Newlands when Dawson did the overhead, yeah, faint, you know. And then went in around the around the blind side, yeah. I mean, a lot of good nights over the years, tough competition. He had 

Damian Willemse
gloves, right? 

Kingsley Wheaton
I think he might 

Damian Willemse
have done gloves. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Brilliant, Jamie. One more question. Thank you so much. What's post rugby one day, 1015, 20 years? What does that hold for Damien? When you know you no longer lace up the boots, what you're going to do? 

Damian Willemse
Yeah, look, I'm, I'm trying to be open-minded. I'm also giving myself the opportunity. I'm studying, I'm doing my, my degree in marketing, and yeah, I'm also slowly starting to transition into, I don't know, which space, because I'm always sitting this side of the camera, 

Kingsley Wheaton
fashion, I hear you like, 

Damian Willemse
I wouldn't say I'm into like fashion or fashion design or whatever, I do love just good clothes, good clothing, and you know, good style, and appreciate how people style themselves. 

Kingsley Wheaton
Sure, 

Damian Willemse
and yeah, I'm not too sure. I think that there's some creative side of me that I would also like to tap into, yeah, and then I think I love to work, or I do work with people, 

Kingsley Wheaton
yeah, 

Damian Willemse
events, 

Kingsley Wheaton
team 

Damian Willemse
collaboration. So, yeah, as I said, I'm open to it, giving myself some grace to try and rush through it, yeah, give time to time, and give myself that I want to do this ABC one day, be an accountant, or whatever, kind of to see where life takes me, and be open to that, and you know, if I need to, I can, you know, just be be content with whatever comes my way, but yeah, I'm studying for now. I need to get my degree as soon as possible, because I've been studying for five years for marketing. Yeah, sorry, 

Kingsley Wheaton
which university, 

Damian Willemse
Stadia? So they do distance learning online, so yeah, I think 

Kingsley Wheaton
you'll be alright. 

Damian Willemse
It's been, it's been good. I think 

Kingsley Wheaton
what stood out for me was the emphasis on people, values, team, strong sense of compassion, caring for others. They're all good qualities, whatever you do in life. Damian Willem, sir, thank you so much. It's been a real honor, and. Pleasure, and thank you for coming on the podcast, 

Damian Willemse
Kingsley. Thank you so much, appreciate that. And thank you for having me. It was wonderful speaking to you. Bye. 

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These transcripts are AI-generated and may contain errors or inaccuracies and should not be relied upon.